Wantrepreneurs.
No, that’s not technically a word. Yes, I purposely used it.
Forget the hype about Chiang Mai’s “digital nomad” scene.
The city is filled with wantrepreneurs.
Look, I’m not here to bash on a certain group of people.
Furthermore, I’m not going on this small rant because I’m in any way unhappy with living in Chiang Mai.
Instead, this digital nomad thing is probably just the one aspect of living in Chiang Mai where reality has differed the most from expectations.
If, like me, you come over here thinking you’re going to meet a bunch of successful entrepreneurs doing amazing things (where you can learn from each other and add value to each other’s lives), you might be disappointed.
A Wantrepreneur
Let’s define this conversation.
A wantrepreneur is an idealistic person who aspires to one day become an entrepreneur but is probably going to fail to realize that dream due to any number of reasons (lack of focus, naivety, poor decision making, limited capital, insufficient passion, unwilling to make the proper sacrifices, wrong time/place, etc.).
So Chiang Mai has a bit of a reputation.
On one hand, it’s a mecca of sorts for digital nomads and novice entrepreneurs who need a really cheap place to set up shop, meet like-minded people, and gain the time and skills necessary to scale their online business(es).
One major reason I came here is to escape the rat race/grind/9-5 mentality of the US.
I wanted to come to a place where people were opting out of being a cog in the machine, instead chasing after their dreams. I wanted to be among people of a similar mindset and outlook.
Indeed, I’ve found a lot of that here. I want to be clear about that.
However, Chiang Mai is also a place where you have the blind leading the blind. It’s marketing, deception, and hype.
The Truth
There’s, for example, a small base of established people who are selling expensive courses/masterminds on how to make money online to the less established masses – yet the business model and profit is actually purely in selling the courses. It’s like one giant MLM scheme going on over here.
(It may as well go like this: buy my expensive course so that I can teach you how to make courses to sell to others, because there’s no money in what my course is talking about.)
I’ve also met people who are putting out content about how to build successful businesses, even though they don’t have one. They wouldn’t know the first thing about it because they literally just started yesterday.
There’s a lot of “fake it till you make it” and self-aggrandizing going on over here, which is totally against my ethos as a writer, investor, and entrepreneur. It’s frankly against everything I stand for as a person. I prize authenticity. And the lack of authenticity among Chiang Mai’s digital nomad set is sad.
In reality, I’ve met very few talented, driven, and successful entrepreneurs (or people in general) in the time I’ve been here. And I’ve gone out of my way to meet people and open myself up, encountering hundreds of people along the way.
I’ve attended countless gatherings and social events. I’ve also had dozens of one-on-one meetups over lunch or coffee. Oh, and I’ve even posted up details about myself and my interest in meeting people on the various online groups.
Chiang Mai is a city that’s instead full of wantrepreneurs. They call themselves entrepreneurs without actually doing anything that would resemble being an entrepreneur.
It’s as if the action of quitting your job and flying to Chiang Mai automatically makes you an entrepreneur overnight.
It’s completely bewildering, but that’s what I’ve witnessed firsthand.
The very few people who have been staying in Chiang Mai for a while pretend like they’re massively successful so that they can sell newbies their products. That’s the truth of the matter. You can tell they’re full of crap after talking/listening to them for even just a few seconds if you have any common sense. Unfortunately, a lot of these naive digital nomads lack that. Common sense isn’t so common.
The worst offender of them all is a guy who sells four-figure courses on selling online. See above.
He also apparently wrote a book on fitness. Anything to make a buck.
Well, I’ve run into him in person multiple times, as one tends to do in Chiang Mai. The guy is heavily overweight, in my opinion. I strongly doubt he actually exercises at all. I can tell you that I would only write about something like fitness if I actually walk the walk. That’s true for anything I write about.
I’m not criticizing overweight people. I’m criticizing inauthentic people who throw ethics out the window and pretend to be something they’re not in order to take money from people who believe them.
This difference between the marketing and reality is Chiang Mai’s digital nomad scene in a nutshell.
Chiang Mai’s “Digital Nomads”
The majority of people I’ve met more or less sound like this:
They’re in their mid-to-late-20s; they’ve been living in the city for 1-2 months (or less); they saw some YouTube video, bought a course, or read an article on how they could move here and become rich and free quickly by making money online while also traveling the world; they’ve saved up a little bit of money from whatever job they had before they came here; they’re trying to get to their first $1,000/month online (which they’re nowhere near, because it’s honestly difficult) so that they can sustain themselves long term to a reasonable degree; their ability to properly allocate capital and manage time/tasks is limited, at best; they have 10 different businesses they’re dabbling in (blogging, vlogging, affiliate marketing, dropshipping, FBA, coding, podcasting, courses, cryptosomething, etc.) because they have no idea what they’re good at; they’re living in cheap, tiny apartments on one hand, but then they’re eating relatively expensive foreign food and partying at night on the other; they think they know everything there is to possibly know about becoming rich and successful, and they’re happy to expound on that; and they have a very naive view on what it’s actually like to work hard, focus, be patient, and become a successful entrepreneur (or person in general) over a longer period of time.
This isn’t unique to my interactions, either. I’ve talked to a few people who have lived abroad way longer than I have, and they’ve admitting to witnessing the same thing.
It’s a confounding set of contradictions. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anything like this before in my life.
I used to be a member of numerous Facebook groups catering to this crowd. I’ve since left because it’s been so disappointing.
However, before I left, I wasn’t the only one questioning the truth about all of this.
Here are two fantastic quotes (I’m going by memory and paraphrasing) I remember running across about the digital nomad scene:
“Digital nomads aren’t entrepreneurs, but they do like to play one on the internet.”
“Most digital nomads are precious snowflakes with big talk and no work ethic.”
Harsh. But that sums it up.
For further perspective, I’m going to relay a story to you guys. This actually happened.
I attended one of the (countless) meetups here in Chiang Mai not too long ago. It was a meetup for entrepreneurs, by entrepreneurs. The whole event was a total waste, but there was one particular “entrepreneur” there that was particularly egregious.
This guy apparently just started building Udemy courses, teaching people how to build a six-figure online business. He was bragging about trying to maximize his revenue by building as many courses as possible, making it so that people had to buy the numerous courses in order to get the full picture.
After listening to him for a minute, I asked him what experience he had in building a six-figure online business. Surely, he must have experience if he’s teaching others.
Well, these Udemy courses were his business. The uncompleted courses were his only experience as a businessman thus far.
My jaw dropped when he told me this. If this were a one-off deal, I’d shrug it off. But it’s emblematic of what this city is all about among digital nomads.
Blind. Leading. The. Blind.
Hard To Relate
Now, this isn’t everyone I’ve met.
I’ve also met some truly awesome people who are, indeed, out there killing it with niche products and/or services. They’re making a healthy income online and living abroad full time (including lengthy periods of travel).
But it is most of the people I’ve met.
This isn’t something that dents my quality of life or anything. I guess I just came over here with different expectations based on the reputation that Chiang Mai has.
This is honestly my fault for kind of buying into the hype. But the city is almost sold as this “Silicon Valley of SE Asia”. And it’s just not that at all. I suppose we could compare San Francisco’s homeless population with the homely backpackers here. That would be about it.
In the end, I simply find myself on a different plane from most people I’ve run across, making it hard to relate. It’s not like I’m able to talk investing, FIRE, entrepreneurship, or wealth building with the average digital nomad.
What many of them are doing is commendable. They’re trying something way outside the norm. That’s awesome. But it’s hard to meaningfully connect if someone isn’t a peer.
This is true for both sides of the coin.
I’ve chatted with a few novice digital nomads about who I am and what I’m up to, and they just don’t even know what to say or think. It’s almost like speaking Greek to them. Nobody means any offense or harm by it, but they can’t relate to me at all. And it doesn’t help that I’m probably a good 10 years older than a lot of them.
Likewise, whereas it was tough to relate to people in the 9-5 in the States, it’s almost just has hard to relate to most of these digital nomads. Some think they’ve got it all figured out because they bought a domain name or whatever. I cringe when I listen to many of them.
I get it. You saw a YouTube video about Chiang Mai or digital nomadism. Congratulations. You can use the Internet.
Looking For More
All this said, I’m not bashing novice entrepreneurs, nor am I bashing digital nomads in general (although I do have some qualms with the “nomad” part of that term).
I have quite the opposite viewpoint of most of these people, at least in concept. My viewpoint naturally tends toward admiration.
I actually admire their courage. And I want people to aim high and try to make their dreams come true, which is why I was so excited to meet some of these people when I got here.
Let’s be real here. There was nothing courageous about what I did. I had no downside in coming to Chiang Mai. I already had plenty of money and established businesses. Nobody should be giving me a round of applause for making the jump.
These people actually have the looming prospect of “failure”.
Of course, that just means they end up going back to their home country and getting a job. Their new worst-case scenario is their prior best-case scenario.
Still, it’s daunting to make the leap. And I respect anyone who gives something a good go.
The only issue for me, personally, is that I have limited opportunities to meet true peers and build mutually beneficial and long-lasting friendships where we can exchange ideas, value, and experiences.
And it’s certainly difficult to meet fellow investors as a result of the lack of capital, success, and long-term wealth-building (no, I don’t mean buying 0.12 bitcoins) among the people staying here.
I’d actually love to learn from others who are more successful than me.
I’m certainly not under the impression that I have everything figured out, which is why I spend so much of my time consuming content, educating myself, and growing as a person.
I’m not the most successful guy around. I don’t have everything in life figured out. I have a lot to learn. And I’m excited to continue growing as a person.
Growth, for me, makes me happy. I embrace change.
Finding a mentor (meeting “my Charlie Munger”) would be phenomenal. It’d be neat to build something with someone. I’ve even gone to meetups loudly signaling that I’d love to meet someone like that.
I’ve instead been inundated with “opportunities” to teach inexperienced people everything I know – for free, no less. Yeah, let me jump right on that!
Chiang Mai Is Transient
The city thus becomes a transient place. People who run out of time and money are replaced by the new crop. It’s almost as if Chiang Mai’s burning season is symbolic of the “crops of people” that eventually burn out here.
Moreover, the few people who do actually go on to become quite successful sometimes prefer traveling anyway. Or they move to bigger, more global cities (like a Bangkok).
Many head back to wherever they came from (using CM as a temporary cheap platform to jump off from). Of course, the driven and successful lot are no doubt busy, you know, putting in the work.
But most people living here permanently or indefinitely (i.e., true expats) are much older. They’re more along the lines of a traditional retiree. This is a person in their 60s (or older), living off of fixed income.
My situation (FIRE in my 30s and living abroad in one place full time) is super unique. I’m in a weird spot in life, which is isolating in some ways. And it limits the chances to meet up with peers in a serendipitous way.
For further reference on this, most of the people I met when I first came here (more than a year ago) have gone back to wherever they originally came from (US, Australia, etc.) after failing at the digital nomad thing.
None of this is that big of a deal to me. I didn’t come to Chiang Mai expressly for the purpose of meeting driven, talented, and disciplined entrepreneurs, investors, or people.
The prospect of that was icing on the cake.
People thinking outside the box is more compelling than anything else to me, and the city fortunately has that in spades.
I came here mostly to pursue my own passions, build a fulfilling and fun life with a significant other, and otherwise wholly enjoy everything I’ve worked hard for. I have no issues whatsoever with any of that. Chiang Mai has lived up to (or actually exceeded) every other expectation across the board.
Conclusion
This whole wantrepreneur thing isn’t actually a huge problem for me. It doesn’t impact my day-to-day life at all.
I only wrote so much about this subject because I wanted to clearly explain my perspective and experience with it (which, of course, is admittedly shaped by my unique life situation).
And I wanted to maybe clear up a few misconceptions about Chiang Mai (misconceptions that are perhaps perpetuated by people who want to sell others a dream).
Furthermore, I want to note that the number of people (although much smaller than I initially anticipated) I’ve met over here who are doing some amazing things is light years ahead of the number of people I’ve met in the US doing similar things – and I’ve only been living here for a year and a half (versus 35 years in the States).
Almost by nature, you have people willing to take a risk and think outside the box, or they wouldn’t be here.
And I applaud that, albeit with the recommendation that you come here with a plan.
I’ve simply scaled back my expectations big time after experiencing the reality of the situation. And I’ve focused less on meeting the masses, instead devoting some my free time only toward people who are already well on their way to wherever they’re going. I basically don’t even go to events or meetups any longer.
Lastly, for anyone curious, most of the successful young people (in terms of moving abroad/traveling full time and having a sustainable location-independent lifestyle that isn’t severely constrained by budgetary issues) I’ve personally met are actually working remotely for whatever Western company they started working for before they left their homeland. They got a job, ended up working remotely for whatever reason(s), and later figured they could get more life for less money abroad.
Successful entrepreneurs running their own business(es) and working completely independently (contracting, freelancing, Amazon stuff, investing, blogging, etc.) are few and far between, at least if we’re talking people who have been or will be doing this for the long haul. This is because the failure rate among this lot is incredibly high. Factoring out the scummy people selling overpriced, worthless courses leaves you with almost nobody.
Look, Chiang Mai is wonderful. It’s still going to beat the pants off of most US cities in terms of meeting like-minded people (if you’re into the lifestyle I’m writing about). It’s just, in my experience, not at all what it’s being touted as. That’s really the bottom line. There are marketers out there hyping the city and their (supposed) success up so that you can buy their stuff.
I love living in Chiang Mai. I absolutely adore my life here. But I’d say that’s despite the digital nomad scene, not because of it.
What do you think? Was this article surprising? Have you ever met a wantrepreneur?
Thanks for reading.
Image courtesy of: Sira Anamwong at FreeDigitalPhotos.net.
P.S. If you’d like to become financially independent, which could allow you to become location independent and live anywhere in the world, check out some amazing resources I personally used on my way to becoming financially free at 33!
Hi Jason,
thank you for this article. It was in some parts quite fun for me and in some parts more negative regarding the digital nomads scene in Chiang Mai as I expected. In Germany we have from time to time articles and documentations about living and working abroad. Its more often working as a freelancer doing some jobs which are not well paid, but with that you can live for example in Chiang Mai. But in my opinion its not much difference than working in Germany in a 9-5 job with nearly similar conditions (in Thailand less income but less expenses). The disadvantage is that you won´t get much rent later, the advantage is to live in a nicer country.
The Germans are overall not very keen to get an entrepreneur. And 90% of them dislike shares and investing in them. But they like warm countries because Germany is very cold in winter (in Munich we have today 30 centimeters snow and it is now snowing for 6 days). So for especially young people this is attractive, but I assume a lot of them will get back after some months or a few years.
Regarding entrepreneurs I met a lot of people. Some very successful, others the opposite. Believe me: Most of the successful people don´t have much time. Having a vision is in the beginning not unimportant to know where you want to go. But shortly after the beginning there are much more importand abilities: endurance, diligence, tenacity and networking abilities. Most of these sort of people are not very interesting and I wondered for some people which were really succesful and went rich, how boring and conservative in every other aspect of life they were. But no one of them were thinking to move as a first step to a different country where it is nice and where you can party and everything is sunny. This may be the reason why you only see 98% wantrepreneurs (I like this word :)).
In western countries you have the business development buildings on several places where people can rent small offices and have some cheap infrastructure. In Munich you can find several buildings. I met people and small companies in such buildings and you can be sure, that over 90% will fail. For some people its quite obvious, they simple don´t have the abilities leading a company. For others there is too less money, too less experience and the lack of the abilities I wrote above even if they have real good ideas. But it is difficult to lead a good idea to success.
I was a general manager for IT companies for nearly 15 years after I changed to freelancing in the IT business. I know first-hand how difficult this is, how much luck you need and how much work it is. Unexperienced you make a lot of failures (I can´t remember how many we made) and if you have employees how to lead them. Without experience you have to learn everything fast and you have to pray not to make too many mistakes. So 1 out of 100 in the mid 20s can master this, if you are a bit older and more experienced may be 5 out of 100. There is a statistic that 95% of all founded enterprises in Germany will not exist after five years. Thats fact and this is what you see in the digital nomads meetings. So don´t be surprised. You must find only the 1 out of the 100 and collect them, so you get after a longer time some good people around you.
Otherwise: You did your homework in the US anyway and you don´t have the pressure to be succesful with a lot of work. When I look at your monthy income and in comparison the costs you are far away to get in financial trouble. With that you have so many opportunities and time to look for the best opportunities for you. And this is an outstanding position.
Regards Oliver
Oliver,
Yeah, some good points here.
I think, in the end, Chiang Mai is a great place to live as an expat, be it as an early retiree or otherwise. I adore my life here. It’s exceeded my expectations almost across the board.
I just simply wouldn’t say it’s a great place to meet driven, talented entrepreneurs. That’s not necessarily a bad thing at all. However, that’s not what the place is sold as by some people in the DN community who are looking to bilk others out of their cash. The truth is purposely withheld.
Chiang Mai is actually a nice place to start an online business, in theory. The long runway it can afford your capital and time is perfect. And if that’s what it were sold as (a place for newbies to meet other newbies and build up), that would be spot on. It’s been marketed and hyped up, though, which is a shame. It’s the old “get rich quick” stuff in the digital age. A lot of these digital nomads remind me of used car salesmen, except they’re selling you a course instead of a car.
Best regards!
Good article! I think this quote from Mika Valtari’s “The Egyptian” says it all:
“Even were the time to come when there would be neither poor nor rich, yet there will always be wise and stupid, sly and simple, for so there have ever been and ever will be. The strong man sets his foot on the neck of the weakling; the cunning man runs off with the simpleton’s purse and sets the dunce to work for him. Man is a crooked dealer and even his virtue is imperfect. Only he who lies down never to rise again is wholly good.”
Timo,
Thanks!
That pretty much sums up human nature from one angle. Always a hierarchy. The strongest survive. Darwinism and all that. There will always be people out there aiming to take advantage of others.
Just trying to clear some of this stuff up and eliminate some of the hype. It’s a fantastic place to live. But if you come here thinking some self-appointed “guru” is going to put you on the path to riches, I’m afraid you’re in for a world of hurt.
Cheers!
It’s Waltari, Timo!
I enjoyed reading this post Jason, only just come across your blog recently so I’ll have to explore it more soon. I can relate to a lot of what you wrote. I’ve probably spent a similar amount of time in Chiang Mai but spread out over about 4 years. I.e 3 or 4 months a year since 2014.
I’m a fair bit older than you (I’m 45), but I’m still a bit younger than your average retiree. I can understand your point about feeling a bit in between over there. I’m basically a full time investor who does a bit of related consulting work to other investors. Whilst I have a blog I don’t really make any money from the internet or selling courses. So I probably don’t fit in with the entrepreneur style crowd. I’m an active investor though so don’t fit in with the retiree crowd that maybe sets and forgets about their portfolio, collects the income without doing research on investing.
Still like you I think Chiang Mai is nonetheless a fantastic place. Maybe I’ll get in touch if I’m there later in the year. I’ll try and sell you my how to make $10k a month as a digital nomad course! 🙂
Cheers
Steve.
Steve,
Yeah, I hear you. It’s hard to find those like-minded peers if you’re at a certain point in life. I’m far from the most wise or successful guy out there, so I thought I’d be a little fish in a big pond when I first came to CM. Much to my surprise, it’s been the opposite. That can be good or bad, depending on your perspective. It’s just been a shock because of how much hype the place has.
Looking forward to buying that course from you!! 😂
Best regards.
This just feels like these wantrepreneurs are being young and naive, wich of course means I am getting old. But I do have a point.
This hole wantreprenur sickness started a few (10-20? years ago) when some people made it big at once. And since that it has become the truth. Do something once, and become the big boss. But most people fail along the way or are not patient or skilled enough. This zero to hero has always been a fools game, but now even more so since “everybody” is having their own startup that will “disrupt the market”, everyone is an entreprenur who will make millions by AirBNB, Amazon dropshipping or with their youtubechannel. But as with all other buisnesses it is hard work and many failures that lies behind success. Some people make it big at once, but some people will win on the lottery. But for you, it is not just going to happen.
And in the spaces between a lot of salespeople are just talking bs and even more bs how their thing is going to change the world. Like that guy you mentioned with the Udemy courses. My company will be the next Facebook, Spotify, Google etc.
But the sales people with nothing for it is easy to spot. If their main focus is to sell you something, it is not “pure” and you can just turn on the tv and look at ads instead.
Getting rich quick schemes are still schemes, even with the internet and “new/old economy” or not.
Now of course there are a lot of good talented people out there, but also a lot of wannabes that are just destructive for themselves and others.
So what about them bitcoins?
Andreas,
“Getting rich quick schemes are still schemes, even with the internet and “new/old economy” or not. Now of course there are a lot of good talented people out there, but also a lot of wannabes that are just destructive for themselves and others.”
That pretty much sums it up right there. I shouldn’t have been surprised by all of this, but I came in with certain expectations. That’s my fault for buying into the hype. It cost me nothing, other than mild disappointment. So it’s all good!
Life is great here. It truly is. I’m living a dream. The exposure to the digital nomad scene was only supposed to be some icing on the cake. Cake with a little less icing on it is still delicious, though. And there are still some super unique people here, so it’s far from a total loss.
How about them bitcoins?! 😂
Cheers.
Sure you where hyped, so was I on the other side on this planet when I first started to read about it a few montsh back. Think most of the FIRE community wrote about it at some point.
Moving to another country, nice weather, cheap alcohol, good food, almost no rent compared to the west, what is not to like? It is like “The Beach” until all the tourists fucks it up 🙂
In the long run i think this wan/entreprenur thing is a great thing for humanity, not that all want or should work for themselves since freelancings is all but good, but the possibility to have a buisness with nothing more than your mind and a computer for less than 1000 dollars. 50 years ago this was so much more expensive to just get going.
While I am here, I have been following you for a couple of years, here and there. And what you, MMM, retireby40, jlcollinsnh and some others have done is just amazing. Thank you all again. It is hard work, slow progress and you have to learn a lot but my god is it rewarding when you see it actually working! (dividens closing to 1/10 of my expenses! And I have other things just starting up, can you believe it!??)
Andreas,
Appreciate those kind words very much. It’s an honor to be part of that company! 🙂
The FIRE community is largely pretty great. I think what separates this community from the digital nomad one is that there’s something tangible underpinning it all. It’s not built on hopes and dreams of people buying your courses. It’s based on real dividend payouts from world-class businesses. Plus, most of us are pretty transparent with the numbers. It’s easy to talk about “killing it” as some digital nomad and “bossing up your life” when you’re not actually showing real numbers (because the real numbers would show people that you’re faking the whole thing, thus losing them as potential clients who can buy your worthless products).
Entrepreneurship, when approached correctly, is wonderful. I’m a pretty small-scale entrepreneur myself, yet it’s done wonders for me. If you can basically set yourself up with enjoyable hobbies that can be monetized, that’s an awfully good position to be in.
Cheers.
I might have come of a bit harsh, so let me say this. It is an awesome thing to have the courage to go abroad and starting your own buisness. I think the people doing this learn a lot about themselves and also the world! The ones I do not like are obvious fake ones, like that fat guy selling fitness courses. Or “how to build a buisness” and that is their one and only buisness. That just hurts others that are serious.
For anyone trying or want to start a buisness, just go for it! But don´t lie and pretend that you are someone you are not. You will be spotted.
Andreas,
Totally agree with that. As I noted, I admire the courage it takes to do something like this. I didn’t have it. It didn’t take me much courage to come over here. I already had the lifestyle set up for myself, so there was no downside.
I’ve met a few people who have done some really cool things. And that has been awesome for me. I love meeting interesting, authentic, driven people. But you do have to sift through the 99.9% of fakers here to meet those people.
Cheers.
Let’s hang out more when I’m back 😉
Amar,
The man, the myth, the legend. 🙂
For sure, brother!
Cheers.
Hey Jason,
nice article as usual! Your journey is so inspiring, thank you for that. Your old blog dividendmantra was one the first blogs I discovered when I started my “boring dividend investing” several years ago. 🙂 And it was one of the most important because you also focused on the grand scheme and not on “why that stock dropped 2% today and that one did not..” 🙂
I have one question. Besides saving and investing on one side I also focus on collecting miles with my credit cards etc. In Germany it is not so easy than in the States but we also have some decent possibilities. I never found an article about that topic but how do you pay in your daily live? Do you still use your US cards or do you have a Thai bank account. For instance I love paying with my Amex because of the MR points but many shops in Germany only take Girocards or even only cash. Do you focus on that as well?
BR Markus
Markus,
Glad I could provide some inspiration. That’s why I write. I’ve always aimed to provide a real-time look at a realistic, if aggressive, journey toward FIRE. It’s all worked out tremendously for me, so I can only hope others take away a lot of value and motivation from all of this. 🙂
As for your question, I’ve addressed it a few times now. I actually dedicated an entire post to it just last month:
https://www.mrfreeat33.com/how-i-manage-my-money-as-a-retired-expat-in-thailand/
Best regards.
Hi Jason,
Thanks for your deep felt article. Frankly, the way you feel about digital nomads in CM is the way I feel about most of FIRE bloggers. Let me explain: I feel most of the folks are actively working and earning, mostly by blogging something about FIRE concepts, even though they claim they have truly attained FI. Don’t get me wrong. Working and earning money neither wrong nor bad. In fact, quite the reverse. But the point I am raising is that most folks seem to depend way too much on revenue generated through blogging and other related activities. It feels to me that if the advertisement based recurring revenue from blogging is removed, people may not be truly FI, in many cases. This can be misleading to followers and would-be early retirees. It can even be dangerous. Imagine a person in their 30’s naively assuming they are FI based on a smallish savings they have and thinking that they can “earn” 20 or 30K per year from blogging to sustain themselves. With more than an overcrowded field (there are probably hundreds of people already blogging about the same FIRE concepts), I do not think this is the right model for everyone. There is also one small detail that many people thinking of RE may not be considering: they may not have the talent to write engaging content that people would be interested in. After all it is a skill not possessed by everyone. Even blogging would take a lot of time and effort but sadly not mentioned much in the online FIRE blogging community.
The other aspect compounding the problem is not all FIRE bloggers are truly open and revealing of all necessary crucial details. In addition, circumstances vary widely across the different bloggers. Some have family members like a spouse working full time, others may be able to achieve FI earlier in somewhat (relatively) uncommon circumstances like being single without a spouse and children or may be pursuing a 60 or 80 hr. week buying, fixing, managing real-estate properties while still claiming in their blog that they are truly retired (or have a “retirement lifestyle”, whatever that means). Look, none of this is wrong, as I stated before. This is a free world and people ought to pursue activities that they feel are productive and bring them happiness. But in many cases, they are truly retired. They are just working for themselves instead of working for someone else. Why not call it by a different term other than an early retiree.
The FI part of FIRE and aiming to be financially independent by saving more and living frugally is very laudable. It’s just intuitive and based on common sense. More people, who are not in this mode, should have a hard think about this. This will prevent many people from going to into debt and feeling desperate. But the RE part and the various confounding, misleading thoughts put out by a ton of people is not helpful. One can argue that traditional work is demonized and vilified while the FIRE lifestyle is glorified with mis-information.
I know this is a critique of a broader topic than just the digital nomad in CM which you wrote about. But somehow, I felt like writing this and placing it here. Thanks.
Kumar,
Well, I don’t really follow any FIRE blogs any longer, so it’s beyond me to comment on it. I used to be a lot more involved with things, but I’ve honestly just kind of moved on to enjoying my post-FIRE life, trying to learn/grow, and sharing some of my perspectives.
That said, the FIRE community has always been pretty great to me. I’ve done my best to throw my hat in the ring, building out the dividend growth investing community (within the FIRE niche) online almost from scratch. And countless people have benefited from that.
I guess it’s up to the reader to follow the blogs that make sense for them, based on whatever they’re looking for (content, message, situation, like-mindedness, etc.). I’ve always remained transparent with the numbers because I thought that was the best way to convey what I was doing, keep myself accountable, and inspire others along the way. It’s worked out tremendously for me and many others. It’s been fantastic. But I don’t expect every FIRE blogger (or anyone else, frankly) to share all of their numbers. Most people aren’t comfortable with that. Most people also aren’t cut out for entrepreneurship, FIRE, or many other things I talk about. It was a super rare thing back when I started sharing my numbers in 2011. Still isn’t terribly common.
But I think you’re overestimating the amount of money some of these bloggers are making. It’s not a high-paying gig at all, which means most should (and probably are) doing it for the love of it. I barely made any money at all for my first three years. And that speaks to the crux of the matter, where a lot of these digital nomads are underestimating the work involved with some of this, all while simultaneously overestimating the amount of income they’ll make. It’s just naive people trying to sell other naive people products, until they go home.
Thanks for dropping by!
Best wishes.
Jason,
I usually don’t comment on your non-dividend stuff (though I do read for the enjoyment), but this time I do have a small something to add. I work the environmental and safety field and have done some side work bartending to make some side cash. My work would doesn’t lend itself well to internet business pursuits. However, there are some new websites out there where you can be consulting professional online to people and make some nice coin doing so. I have thought about it as a side thing, but having a 1 year old takes up most of that time. I know I could do it full time and make it work, mainly because I have some unusual certifications (the kind that are a pain in the ass you test for) – but its going to stay a back pocket idea.
Just a thought for those who want to be a little more detached, there are sites like that out there and its a nice way to leverage credentials if people have them.
Keep enjoying that sun. Its 30 and windy as hell here in DC today, and a bit of a ghost town…
– Gremlin
DG,
I’m very much enjoying the sunshine. Don’t miss winters at all! 🙂
Yeah, I think there’s a ton of room for qualified and experienced consultants, coaches, etc. As I stated at least once in the article, I’m all for entrepreneurship – when done correctly. I’ve used it myself. Working for yourself on projects you’re passionate about is fantastic. I’ve written pretty extensively here about how FIRE isn’t about sipping margaritas on the beach. You still need to remain productive and have passions in your life. Entrepreneurship is a natural outlet for those seeking/achieving FIRE.
The problem arises when know-nothing, self-appointed “gurus” become a consultant/coach on something they just decided to “master” overnight – and then go and sell overpriced, worthless products to people who don’t know any better because the “guru” is just marketing it to death. All that does is hurt people who could otherwise use that money and time on something that might actually provide value. And it also gives real entrepreneurs a bad name.
Best wishes!
Jason,
Totally agree. A lot of the peer-to-peer consulting stuff do background checks because of that – and having a bunch of serious certifications for me would make it easy to get approved. Hell, they got me my current work doing some serious and usually interesting stuff. If you ever fly back to the US, know I had super small part in keeping that stuff safe :).
Seriously though, its fun running into scammers where I work because they are typically painfully obvious and comical.
– Gremlin
Am I surprised about this article?
No, not at all. I did live for quite some time in a warm country, earning my money online. But I did, before travelling and quit my normal job for that time, before too – just changed it to fulltime so it earns enough money (and it did work for me). That was a wonderful time of my life. But I met a lot of people like you described too, and in the end 90% wanted to sell courses and “knowledge” to others, only 10% really had something like a working online business that they earn their money with (like me).
However, I decided after a year to accept a job offer and go back into my home country, due to different reasons, but most important was – my online earning worked, but the fun with it was lost, and earnings were not so much bigger than normal job and I didnt feel that me is “strong” enough to make it much bigger. Plus many other reasons, I was much younger (<30 age), family, friends etc. not seen nearly a year.
However, this time of my life did teach me a lot of course, and dropping "the dream" after a year at that moment of time in my life was not a loss or a fail for me (many others thought of course because I moved back), I do not regret anything.
By the way, I always did and do something online besides my normal job and add some money to salary – can be $50, can be $300 in a month, just how much I like to do.
But iam far away from the point why I write this comment – just wanted to say, your article is very very good and I hope many young people trying to start their digital nomad life read it and really think about it – because starting with absolutely nothing than a laptop and visiting some courses will never do it. People trying this will 90% fail and the other 10% will start their own teaching-courses to survive and live from the money of future "newbies".
Stay in your country, start building whatever you want online-business, if it works and you see it can really earn you a monthly income (and not only dream and hope about it), you can start and travel and try fulltime and focus your own business.
Something added (because iam rarely commenting):
Yes, you are in a very very unique position/situation in your age. And yes, its very hard to find others to connect, because most people dont understand and want to be rich in 6 months with uncommon ideas that makes no sense for "common-thinking" people.
I made kind of similar experiences in my year "abroad". However, you are still far ahead of me due to other mistakes I made (like investing wrong first) and a generally much lower income than yours in U.S..
But dont get me wrong, iam still working on it of course. And congratulations to what you did so far in your life, thats really impressive
Michael,
It’s unfortunate, but inevitable, that you also experienced this. It’s a bummer, but it’s so pervasive that you can’t help but notice it after exposing yourself to it for even a short period of time. I’m far from the only one who’s noticed this phenomenon. I’ve had conversations about this whole “wantrepreneur” thing many times with bonafide entrepreneurs (including Amar, further up the comment thread) over here, and they’ve all noticed the same thing. 99% of my content is overwhelmingly positive and optimistic. That’s because it’s truthfully how I feel. It’s a reflection of the truth. Likewise, I have to keep it real with what I’ve experienced with digital nomads.
I totally agree with you in regard to starting an online business in your home country, THEN going abroad. The people who come over here with nothing more than a laptop and a dream are putting themselves in an incredibly difficult situation. It’s shocking how unaware and unprepared 90%+ of them are. Yet they have such hubris about it. They’re totally sure they’ll be a millionaire next month. I think some of that (but not all) is owed to the “gurus” who are selling them a dream. It’s a real shame.
Appreciate the support very much. I’ve worked incredibly hard to get into this spot. And I’ve done my best to provide honest, thoughtful, authentic, inspirational content. So it does disappoint me a little bit when I see some of these digital nomads giving bloggers (like myself) a bad name through the get-rich-quick schemes. One man’s tool is another man’s weapon.
Cheers!
Jason I’m glad you wrote this as it has a lot of helpful info in it for me, as someone that has never even been to Thailand, but has read about it, and is contemplating going there at some point. I have to admit, the first time I ever heard about Chiang Mai was when I discovered the word “digital nomad”. Which led me to a bunch dubious drop shipping training/teaching websites. I thought the drop shipping stuff sounded like a scam and I surmised on my own that the drop shipping gurus made/make their money selling courses and not actually running drop shipping companies. Anyway, that is how I found about digital nomads and Chiang Mai.
If I moved to Chaing Mai for a few months/year I would have my dividend income ($14k currently) to live on and cash savings. I have 17 years and counting working in IT. So I’d probably look for some kind of freelance work in IT. There seems to be an abundance of freelance IT jobs out there, and I have income regardless. So I imagine it wouldn’t be too hard to bring in an extra few hundred dollars a month working part-time remotely. I doubt I would try to setup any type of business outside of maybe making a few bucks off of youtube and maybe a blog (more so just to document what I am doing for family/friends). If I were going to try to make money it would be by using my IT knowledge.
jh,
You surmised on your own what escapes many others who lack that common sense, unfortunately.
There are plenty of opportunities to set up a bonafide online business and make a very comfortable “side hustle” income. No two ways about it. I’ve done it. So have many others. However, like with most things in life, a lot of people want the shortcuts and easy paths. I think it’s partly the fault of the “gurus” selling the dream, and partly the fault of the people who buy into it because they secretly want to. They’d rather buy into that than deal with the reality of the situation, which is to grind it out and make some decent (but not “baller”) money online.
I’m not trying to dissuade anyone of anything here. Just providing a reality check on the situation so that people who do want this kind of lifestyle think really hard about their plan and priorities.
Thanks for dropping by!
Best regards.
I actually don’t think it’s just Chiang Mai — I think the entire world is like this. Filled with fakers trying to make it.
I’ve met a few successful entrepreneurs in my day, but they’re exceedingly rare. Many are just naive kids who are going to fail quickly. The real wizards are hiding behind the curtain.
Real authenticity is in fact very hard to find, and most people can’t tell the difference.
Mr. Tako,
Great point. Definitely agree with you on that one. Chiang Mai just exacerbates all of these widespread human behaviors because it’s this concentrated incubator of sorts.
Best wishes!
Hi Jason,
An interesting and a very deep post.
Well, having lived in Thailand for 12 years I can say that this trend applies to both the Thais as well as expats. MLM schemes are commonplace there- Amway has set up there as has Unicity and I believe Herbalife at one point.
Many people are buying a pound of protein powder for $42 when the same stuff with a different brand can be found online in the USA for $6-8. Of course there is the margin of the company as well as the 5 upline people who get their cut.
I remember a group of people from Unicity tried to rope me into a presentation. It was a lot of time spent on a person showing off their flashy cars and houses and talking about the importance of getting your own income without having to invest your own money to make it happen. When I pointed out that mathematically 98% of people would lose money the answer I got was that was only true if they didn’t stick with it and the market wasn’t yet saturated. I took off shortly after that.
Critical thinking skills is harder to come by than what seems should be the case. Or maybe these type of places just select the less critical thinkers. Whenever a seminar starts off with “there are no accidents in life and there is a reason you are here” it’s time to ask one of Charlie Munger’s key quotes: “Cuo bono” or Who benefits?
-Mike
Mike,
I guess it’s easy to blame the “gurus” selling the dream, but it also seems like a lot of people love to buy into a dream – even if they know, deep down inside, it’s all a lie. Reality is a tough pill to swallow. Ignorance is bliss. This speaks to a lot of stuff related to FIRE, as well as life in general.
You might have found it easy to walk out of that presentation. Others might not. They want to believe it – badly.
I adore my life here. It keeps getting better and better, much to my disbelief. But that’s despite the digital nomad scene here, not because of it.
Best regards.
Hi Jason, hows it coming with the gym trainer biz?
Chuck,
Not sure if that’s a serious or sarcastic comment?
I’m a certified personal trainer in the US. But I don’t have any kind of personal training business whatsoever, nor am I interested in starting one.
Cheers.
(I had actually also thought that you had started a personal training business in Chiang Mai, but it may have come from reading blog articles out of order)
Anonymous,
Hmm. That’s interesting. I’ve never written about anything like that before. Maybe some Mandela Effect occurring here.
To be clear, I couldn’t be less interested in something than starting a personal training business in Thailand.
Cheers.
Hi Jason!
I’m looking forward to go back to Chiang Mai next fall/winter and would love to meet up to discuss more about dividend growth stocks, minimalism and work outs 😉
We tested the FIRE lifestyle last year and loved it but I started 2 companies to add a bit of margin to get more security and choices.
Best regards from a cold Sweden
Rikard
Rikard,
Sounds great. I’ll definitely be here! 🙂
Stay warm over there.
Best regards!
Spot on assessment.
I’m a young retiree (about your same age Jason) and I’ve been living in Thailand/Chiang Mai for about 2 years. I have no need to launch a business or scheme to make money so I don’t participate in any of the entrepreneur meetups. However, I have overheard enough conversations while out to lunch or having coffee in a cafe to know that most of these digital nomads are destined to fail. Dumb/questionable business ideas, Bitcoin “investing”, daytrading, YouTube vlogging, Udemy course creation, etc. If you can’t start a successful online business in your home country, you can’t start one in Chiang Mai either. Any entrepreneur community that may exist here is not special and networking with them is not going to be the key to your success.
The cost of living can be low here, but a lot of people underestimate the true cost when factoring in such things as travel and visa expenses. And if you want to live a western lifestyle here you’re going to pay western prices.
A,
Right. You know what I’m talking about. It doesn’t take much listening or talking to these people to get clued in to exactly what’s going on. You can figure it out very quickly if you have any wits about you. I actually figured this whole gig out very early on, but I did my best to stay optimistic and keep sifting through the 99% of fakers to find the genuine people out there. I’d say it was worth it because I’ve met some really awesome people. But it was far more work than I anticipated.
“If you can’t start a successful online business in your home country, you can’t start one in Chiang Mai either.”
That nails it. It’s almost as if some of these people think they’re going to poop out a business in the CNX airport restroom as soon as they land. It’s like, “Hi, I’m here now. Where’s my six-figure online business?”
I admire the courage. I love it when people think outside the box. I really do. But coming over here with no general idea of what you’re going to do is a very poor way to approach it, which can be said for anything in life. Fail to plan, plan to fail. It’s not surprising to see some of these young people come over here with a very lazy approach to it. You would see that anywhere. It’s just that we’re talking ~99% of the people, which is the total opposite of what the place is being sold as (by the marketers who want to hype it up so that you buy their products).
Best wishes.
Jason, I enjoyed your article and allow me to share my observations as an American who has lived in Bangkok for several years as an English teacher. I’ve observed the realities of digital nomads from people I know, as well as the spin of how it is promoted on the internet. For me, I love living overseas and Thailand is great place to call home. I find it interesting how on the internet (forums, blogs, twitter or youtube) there is a great deal of black and white thinking applied to digital nomads vs English teachers. In that, digital nomads are portrayed as an ideal lifestyle while English teaching is seen as a depressing existence.
Yet, if both English teachers and digital nomads are able to live overseas in a great country like Thailand, why then is one seen as such a better way to make money? English teaching certainly does have its negatives (like any job) but it’s also stable pay, a secure visa, months of paid vacation, and a relatively stress free job. Yet, the sentiment I’ve observed is that English teaching is looked down upon, primarily because it is seen as a tedious, boring job with limits to the salary you can earn. So now, young people who might want to live in Thailand are deciding to choose the digital nomad path because it is seen as the cooler, more successful way to go.
As you correctly pointed out there are many challenges that go into making it work as a digital nomad, and like you, I have seen people I know worry about monthly cash flow, experienced business failures, and one guy I know left the Thailand, when months earlier he was bragging about how his app would be a million dollar idea.
If I could play arm chair psychologist, I have an idea why digital nomadism has been promoted so heavily on the internet. I believe that far, far too many active users on twitter, social media, forums and youtube have a fair bit of narcissism/egoism about projecting an image of success of who they are to the world. These types, have an aspirational wealth attitude that encompasses the fake it to you make it persona. I think this is related to wanting to work or “working” in the same industry (drop shipping, seo, etc…) as some guy who made it big, and who they follow on social media, which causes them to feel like intimately know that person and are following in their footsteps. For these types, they can’t entertain a job of English teaching due to the clear salary caps, so they buy into the hype of digital nomadism thinking it’s a path to freedom and riches, while never looking honestly at the challenges.
In their mind, it is a status thing of being seen as cooler by earning money working in a coffee shop than reporting to a location at a specific time to do a job, as an English teacher would do. Never mind, the English teacher might have 3 easy lessons the whole day, while the digital nomad could have some stressful deadline to meet for his clients
In summation, I don’t have anything for or against English teaching or digital nomads, both have advantages and disadvantages. But, it is clear to me that if ones goal is to live a good life abroad people should realize both options of English teaching and being a digital nomad enable people to live that way.
LD,
Thanks for sharing your candid thoughts! 🙂
I don’t personally have anything against English teachers/TEFL/etc, nor do I have anything against having a job in general. I believe FIRE is wonderful for the numerous reasons I’ve been writing about and experiencing for several years now. But I also had to have a job and grind it out in order to get here. A lot of these digital nomads want to skip that whole arc and get right to the good stuff. It might work out for a select few, but most will never get there.
If I were looking at a job overseas (like teaching English), I would just weigh that out against having a job in my home country. I wouldn’t compare it to being a digital nomad, though, because I see them as quite different. Being an entrepreneur is very different than having a job, and they have a very different set of pros and cons. I’m not saying one is better than the other. That depends on who you are and what you value. The same goes for FIRE. I don’t believe FIRE is somehow “right” or “better” than a more traditional lifestyle arc (including a job). But it’s definitely right and better for me. I could never have a job again. No way, Jose.
I’ve never looked into teaching English, so I’m not sure of how advantageous it might be to do TEFL in Thailand (or somewhere else) versus just being a teacher in one’s homeland. I’d have to look at pay against local COL, lifestyle, opportunities for growth, etc. I can say I’ve only met a few English teachers here in Chiang Mai, and they were living very basic/poor lives. One guy would only meet me for food at the cheapest markets. He seemed pretty stressed about money. I can only surmise his pay/income is quite low.
In the end, a digital nomad or remote worker should be (in theory) taking advantage of geographic arbitrage by earning in one currency and spending in another. If you’re working locally, you’re probably going to be giving up some of that arbitrage. Combining that with the freedom that remote working or digital nomadism could (again, in theory) provide, and I can certainly see why there would be a preference for it. Some people just aren’t built for jobs (including myself). Most people are. To each their own. But I don’t see teaching English and becoming an online entrepreneur at all comparable. Just my view on it. It’s like comparing me going back to work in the auto industry (regardless of the location) against living my FIRE lifestyle. You can pick them apart for pros and cons, but I don’t see them as comparable in any way.
Cheers!
Jason thanks for the reply.
While being a digital nomad and teaching English are not comparable directly, they both enable a person to live abroad in a country like Thailand. I personally, could not imagine having to live full time in the USA again after living abroad for so long and it has always interested me finding ways to support myself to live abroad.
Compared to the past professional jobs I had in the USA, teaching in Thailand is a completely different experience. For the most part it is pretty relaxing, especially with in the culture of Thailand which emphasizes “sanuk” or fun. This means things never get stressful or are taken too seriously.
Due to the amount of foreigners who want to live in Chiang Mai the wages of teachers are much lower because the supply of potential teachers exceeds the demand for teachers. The rest of the country, outside of a few tourist spots like Phuket, would have more demand for teachers and higher salaries. Assuming the teacher has a year of experience, is native speaking with a University degree, their pay would average around 40-50k baht. The average teacher that works in a private/International school would have 20 teaching classes a week and 2-3 months paid holiday.
To someone, reading this comment that really wants to live in a place like Thailand, please consider options like FIRE, digital nomadism, and English teaching as being just a few ways to support yourself.
BTW Jason keep up the good work writing interesting content and recommending dividend stocks as I recently bought some BMI on your recommendation.
LD,
Well, I love living in Thailand. Very much so. Don’t ever want to live in the US again. But to each their own on that.
As for the comparisons, living abroad in one place and traveling around abroad flexibly/freely aren’t the same. Really not comparable. The “nomad” part of it implies that they’re living a nomadic lifestyle (which many are, much to their detriment). Again, working for yourself online and being able to live wherever you want is very different from having a fixed job in Thailand, where you have to deal with the issues that come with that. Just like I wouldn’t ever want to live in the US again, I wouldn’t ever want to have a job again. Again, to each their own. The job would be a lower-risk way to ensure a paycheck, which is always the case with a job. But you’re giving up a lot of potential income for the lower risk you’re assuming. They’re not the same at all.
The pay you’re citing sounds about right to me. I’m thinking the TEFL people I’ve run into up here make quite a bit less (due to the dynamics you’re citing). I look at my passive income as being tripled in local purchasing power terms (that’s Chaing Mai to a like city in the US). So that’s a fairly healthy income that would be on par with making about $43k/year in the US. I would just compare making $43k/year in the US teaching to making $14,400/year in Thailand teaching. After spending some time in BKK over the holiday, though, I can see how it’s quite a bit more expensive than CM, which skews things. It would really come down to personal preferences, but I think the $43k/year in the US would be more advantageous in terms of getting to FIRE (if one so desired it). If one wanted to do TEFL in Thailand, regardless, that’s what they should do.
Again, TEFL in Bangkok, FIRE, and digital nomadism are all very different paths. The outcomes might have some similarities between them, but the day-to-day lifestyles are going to be radically different. I say this as someone who’s had a job, is FIRE, and makes a healthy income online. So I’ve experienced a good measure of them all.
Thanks again for the thoughtful discussion. 🙂
Cheers!
This is very useful information and gives me a good idea on how to easily figure out what kind of dividend income is needed to retire in a specific place. All you have to do is find out how much English teachers are paid in a given location (assuming no free lodging and such is included) and you will have an excellent idea of how much money is needed.
“I would just compare making $43k/year in the US teaching to making $14,400/year in Thailand teaching.”
Wow, that really makes me feel good, as I have just gotten my dividend income up to $14,000 at the end of Dec 2018. Its hard to believe the price difference is really so large even though you have mentioned it a million times already, Jason.
Maybe it won’t really sink in for me until I actually go there one day.
@LD
“I believe that far, far too many active users on twitter, social media, forums and youtube have a fair bit of narcissism/egoism about projecting an image of success of who they are to the world.”
This is a very true statement but not limited to just digital nomads. Not limited to young people. Not limited to only images of success but also images of happiness. This is going on everywhere. It truly is destroying people and mental health. I see it first hand every day. People who are otherwise happy, quickly become sad or depressed after ‘checking in’ to social media. Seeing images of their friends, family, or strangers sitting at a dinner table enjoying a glass of wine saddens them because they were not there. Seeing a picture of an acquaintance on the beach while they are eating a PBJ at their lunch hour ruins their productivity for the rest of the day. Not sure how this will change in the future but it will change. Everything changes.
Many people want to be part of the hype. They joined the hype to look good and feel good. Activities not equal results. Doing things that do not generate results but only generate the “feel good” effect. This is what many wantrepreneurs are doing. It’s a bit unfortunate but maybe one day these people will realise it and then start working on some good products and services.
engboonhow,
Yeah. Agree with you on that.
As has been pointed out, this isn’t a Chiang Mai thing, or even an entrepreneur thing, specifically. It’s really more along the lines of widespread human nature. You see this everywhere, in every kind of activity.
I suppose I’ve only been surprised because Chiang Mai was hyped up. If it weren’t for the hype, I would have been pleasantly surprised by the small handful of really interesting people I’ve met in my time here. And so I think I’d be remiss if I didn’t reset expectations for others down the line, which will surely lead to a more pleasant experience (especially if they’re taking a good look at what they’re doing in the entrepreneurial sense).
Best regards!
Thanks for this sobering piece. I’ve actually stopped going to meetups in CM because I lost that golden patience and OPEN-MINDEDNESS you seem to have maintained.
I’m in SEO and have been working with clients for three years now. I suppose it’s not that important what I do but it’s worth mentioning that the ratio of competence to flash is sickeningly high in my field. It’s actually quite lonely being legitimately stable income wise and seeking like minded individuals in the same position.
I guess I just wanted to comment and say good on you for keeping your wits around these soul sucking types. I’m not faring nearly as well and have isolated from them as the desire to further refinethe introduction with “no, *really*, what do you DO?”
Hope to run into you one day and commiserate on this ironic state of mind.
Lost nomad,
Yeah, it’s really unfortunate. It’s just human nature, I suppose. Most people want shortcuts. They want it easy. Real success is a long, long, long grind. There’s nothing particularly “sexy” about the grind. There was nothing fun about jobbing 11+ hours per day, eating ramen noodles, and getting five hours of sleep during my ascent to FIRE. But I’d argue the rewards are very much worth the stretch.
These “digital nomads” would prefer to skip all of that and get right to the sexy stuff. I’ve actually had a few kind of scoff at me for having a job, saving, investing, and doing it the old-fashioned way. I’m like a grandpa over here. So they go to the parties (disguised as “networking events”) and talk to each other using terms they either don’t understand or don’t actually apply. It’s incredibly odd and disappointing. But it is what it is. If you’re looking for some purple-haired girl with a bull ring through her nose to tell you how her YouTube channel on veganism is gonna blow up, it’s great here. But if you’re looking for genuine people working hard and making things happen, it’s honestly not.
That said, there are still some super unique people that come through here, perhaps because of the hype. I’ve commiserated with my fair share of souls. So it’s not a lost cause. I’m far from the only person to recognize all of this. Believe me. There are more of us. It’s just that I’m not the kind of person to harp on something and get all negative about it, so this lonesome article will be drowned out by the loud marketing and hype. So it’ll continue as it is, for the most part.
You mentioned isolation. Success is in and of itself an isolating experience. The more successful I become, the less people I have in my life. I think that’s true for most successful people. I mean, it’s not like Warren Buffett has dozens of friends he hangs out with. He only talks to Munger very occasionally – and that’s his oldest and best friend of all. You start to elevate yourself with success. Others who don’t or can’t elevate themselves naturally get left behind. It’s the nature of things.
Thanks for dropping by!
Cheers.
Hello Jason.
Found you from Brets podcast and really reasonanted with your story and the mentality you have towards life and FIRE. I’m teaching English in China but I know no one not my friends or family who I can relate regarding this mentality towards life;honestly is draining but I find solace in online sources such as you and Bretts channel.
I’m planning to move to CM in the near future and I’m well aware of the potential pitfalls and potential for failure. However as you and Brett has said, the issue with many DNs is a lack of clarity, they will move trying to do too much without knowing how to do ANYTHING at all which is setting yourself for failure.
Copywriting as a online revenue source really reasonantes with me, however I have no experience but as everything you need to start to cultivate it. Prior to moving to CM I will have 2-3 months living in London improving my portfolio and trying my hardest to make some money prior to making the jump. Setting myself up for success rather than failure. Having a buffer of around 5500 USD will facilitate myself during the initial imbeding process of balancing expenses with income and motivate me even more in my work.
I have two aims regarding CM, one is to learn Muay Thai and another is becoming location independent. I look forward to perhaps meeting you one day Jason, and no I don’t think I’ll be like those dickhead digital nomads 😂 thank you so much for this content I appreciate it.
Dillon
Dillon,
Appreciate the kind words. Glad you enjoyed the podcast/interview I did with Brett. It was a lot of fun to have that long chat. 🙂
You can find a few intelligent, driven, talented, successful people here. But they’re few and far between. And I’ve figured out they don’t go to the meetups or otherwise even hang out with other “digital nomads”. I’m coming to the conclusion that most successful location-independent entrepreneurs actually despise that term. They cringe when the hear it. And I get it now. There’s a negative connotation to it that kind of conjures up a certain image.
You won’t find Brett at any of the social stuff, nor will you find me. So just keep that in mind. Chiang Mai is a great place to live life, do your thing, and even meet a few awesome people.
Wish you much luck and success with the jump!
Best regards.
A good, entertaining read, Jason! I get the nuanced disdain for the wantrepreneur while still liking CM (in spite of the wantrepreneurs). I guess the local economy enjoys having these guys there cycling in and out and leaving their USDs and euros behind!
In the FIRE blog space we don’t see as much of the wannabe fake it till you make it types but there are some cases where I wonder. 🙂 But hey, to each their own!
Justin,
Don’t get me wrong. I love living here. CM has exceeded my personal expectations in every regard other than the DN scene. It’s funny, though, because I left America to kind of get away from typical Westerners. Lo and behold, it’s Westerners that largely end up being the disappointing lot over here, too. 😂
That said, I’m really glad they come here. Both for the Thai people/economy and for selfish reasons. CM wouldn’t be so developed otherwise, which is great for Thailand. I certainly wouldn’t be able to lounge about in cheap, ubiquitious, high-quality coffee shops if the DN scene didn’t exist to create that demand in the first place. So I’m glad they come. It’s just a thing where I’ve learned to mostly avoid the entire lot of them.
Best regards.