Life is going better than I ever could have expected here in Chiang Mai, Thailand.
Of course, there’s not much to dislike. There are a few drawbacks. Every place has its drawbacks, but it’s pretty easy to love living the FIRE lifestyle in Thailand.
It’s become my home over the last couple years.
I’d actually argue it feels more like home than the United States ever did for me. There’s been no culture shock. If anything, it’s been the opposite.
Just because you’re born somewhere, that doesn’t automatically mean it’s a good fit for you.
In the end, a place is just a giant rock. There’s much more to a place becoming home than where you’re physically located or where you were placed at birth.
For me, there are a number of issues with the States in regard to me living there full time.
Chief among the issues keeping me away are related to healthcare, gun crime, overwhelming political correctness, cost of living, the prioritization of money above all else, a general feeling of unhappiness/anxiety among people, the rat race, politics, male-female dynamics, race, and an overall sense of divisiveness and tension.
That all said, the US can be a great place to live. And it’s exactly that for millions of people. People from all over the world clamor to visit or live there. I can appreciate that. Not everyone wants the same thing as me, thank goodness!
There’s the modern infrastructure, cleanliness, freedom of speech, quality and variety of amazing food, culture clashing, vastness of space, massive economy, and ability to do and buy almost anything. If you’re a wealthy person, there are few places in the world that offer more ways to spend that money.
Likewise, there are numerous opportunities to work hard and get ahead.
I went from growing up in a crack house to financially independent. It was incredibly tough to move myself up the economic and social ladder. But it would have been nigh impossible almost anywhere other than the US.
I will forever be grateful for the opportunities I had to excel and move up.
And while I’d argue luck is at least as important as hard work as it pertains to success and happiness, being born in the US in the early 80s (especially as a white male) is pure luck.
I’m very happy here in Thailand. And I have no plans to leave in the near term or long term.
However, I thought it’d be interesting to discuss some reasoning that would prompt a voluntary move back to the States.
The idea for this piece came to me after fielding a few emails from readers where I was asked if I ever thought about coming back.
The five reasons you’ll see below are the top ideas I have in mind as to why I’d ever come back to the country.
Now, this is a voluntary move I’m discussing here. I’m factoring out any kind of forced (economic, political, military, etc.) move that would make it necessary to leave Thailand in short order (this is highly unlikely).
Let’s get into it…
The Dysfunctional Healthcare System Is Largely Fixed
The US healthcare system is nothing short of a total mess.
It wasn’t the only, or even really the biggest, reason I left. But it was very much on my radar, pushing me away from staying there.
Well, after experiencing the healthcare system over here in Thailand, even without health insurance, it’s hard for me to ever imagine going back to what the US has in place.
My monthly premium (on a bronze plan with a massive deductible, no less) was likely going to be $500+ per month in 2018. Likely even more for 2019. All for the privilege of paying thousands of dollars more in case something actually did happen. Yay!
I remember the “Just Say No” drug campaign from my childhood – it was especially prevalent in Detroit back then. Well, I’m “just saying no” to the US healthcare system.
Even if the healthcare system became nationalized tomorrow, it’s still unlikely I’d move back.
But living in the US would instantly become a more attractive place to live, in my mind, if the healthcare system as it exists were drastically improved.
No Visa Issues
My disdain for paperwork and bills is well-known and part of my minimalist ethos in life.
A preference for a lack of bills and paperwork in my life isn’t even about the money. It’s really more about the hassle.
My overall exposure to hassles is much lower in Thailand relative to the US. No doubt about it.
My apartment in Chiang Mai is a great example of this, as I have just one monthly bill that wraps in my rent and all of my various utility charges. It’s awesome.
However, a good chunk of that lower exposure is offset by a juggernaut of a hassle: ongoing visa concerns.
No matter how long I live here, I’ll always be a ‘farang’ (that’s Thai for foreigner). And part of that includes going through the visa motions to stay here.
Moving back to the US would solve this; I’m a US citizen who doesn’t need to be concerned with such things.
That changed/improved dynamic would be more than balanced out with all of the numerous hassles that living in the States comes with, however, so this wouldn’t be that big of a benefit.
Still, though, not needing to ever again deal with an immigration office would be nice.
A Job Or A Physical Business
Say what?
Yes. A job.
This is simultaneously the most likely and least likely reason I’d move back to the US, strangely enough.
Look, I don’t want a job. Don’t need a job. I’m very happy to be job-free (not jobless).
I work. I work really hard. And I love to work.
But having a job is a different beast altogether.
If I ever did come upon a point in my life in which I craved having a physical job again, or if I wanted to build some kind of physical business (not an online business), though, I’d probably pursue that avenue in the States. It’s just much easier when considering the legalities, language barriers, etc.
For example, I’m a certified personal trainer.
Not only that, but I’m as enthusiastic about fitness as I am finance. I spend just as much (if not more) time and energy in my life dedicated toward the betterment of my physical self as I do my financial self.
If I wanted to exercise (pun intended) my expertise and licensing in the fitness field, I’d probably start that journey at a gym. And this is something that would be much easier to accomplish in US. I could then, later, build some kind of personal training business.
I actually thought about working as a personal trainer before I relocated to Thailand. There were some gym openings I checked into, with the thought of using that as a starting point for a PT business of some kind.
But the idea of getting a job, even for a short period of time, just seemed like such a bummer. It felt like I was moving backward. I don’t think there’s any job in this world that I’d enjoy doing.
And it was pretty much an either/or scenario: either get a temporary job in the fitness field, or move abroad to build out the life I had envisioned years prior.
Relocating abroad was a much more appealing idea at the time. There’s no world I can imagine in which I think I’d be happier if I had took the other path instead.
However, I could, possibly, see a future world in which I decide to move over into the fitness industry down the road. It’s not likely, but the odds are greater than zero. If I had to put a number on what the odds might be of me actively chasing after some kind of job or work in fitness over the next ten years, it’s around 1%.
This entire concept is just as valid if I were to ever want to open a business of any kind in the physical realm. Anything I were to do in the physical space in which I’m paid for my time/service/knowledge/efforts, I would want to do in the States. A job is interchangeable with a physical business in this particular case.
If I did decide to pursue a new field, especially in which I’d have a physical job/role, I’d probably do so in conjunction with moving back to the USA. And so the odds of moving back to the US at any point in the next decade are probably in that 1% range, too.
The People
Part of my comfort with living in Thailand is rooted in the fact that I don’t have very many relationships back in the States.
I’ve discussed my tragic childhood many times, which left me with no parents and few childhood friends. And I ended up letting go of most of the little family I had left after I realized they resented me for my relative success in life.
Furthermore, my adoptive parents turned out to be truly terrible people who did some horrific things.
As such, I can count on one hand the number of relationships I maintain back in the States.
But it’s all about quality, not quantity. And the relationships I still have are with wonderful people.
I suppose there’s always a gravitational pull of the heart that tugs on an expat just a little bit to one day return back to their home country, even if that tug is irrational. Even though I’d tell you I’m a very pragmatic person, almost to the point of having very little emotion, I still miss a few people.
It’s just that it’s much easier for me to develop and maintain healthy relationships over here, especially the romantic kind.
I feel like male-female dynamics have eroded over the years in the States. There seems to be some kind of tense, adversarial type of environment going on over there which I’m not a fan of. But it’s the complete opposite over here. My relationship with Oh is one of the best and most fun interpersonal relationships I’ve ever had in my life.
Plus, it’s much easier for me to make friends here in Thailand due to a number of factors that coalesce together.
Chiang Mai has a lot of people doing really interesting things that are more in line with my values. There’s a measure of serendipity that exists here that simply cannot be replicated in the States.
However, the relationships I do still have in the States are old, deep, and ingrained into my identity.
If I were to ever return to the States, those relationships I maintain would certainly factor into that choice.
The Food
I love Thai food. I mean, I really love the cuisine over here.
And I love the physical benefits almost as much as the taste, value, and quality.
That’s why I eat the stuff every day.
However, it’s possible that I’ll one day be a little tired of eating Thai food all the time. Maybe even a lot tired.
The natural and easy solution to this is to simply take a break and eat non-Thai food for a while. The issue with that solution, though, is that the non-Thai options over here are relatively limited.
Now, you can find pretty good burgers over here. You can even get some decent Mexican food. The same goes for most international food options you could think of.
But we’re talking an ant compared to a jumbo jet in scale terms if we’re comparing Chiang Mai to any fairly large US city. And that’s just talking quantity. Taking quality into consideration only serves to amplify the distance between these two worlds.
Living in Bangkok, however, would probably fix this. The international food options down there are are substantially better in terms of both quantity and quality.
Actually, moving to any large, international, and cosmopolitan city would largely solve this, so the US isn’t really the only (or even primary) option.
I would never move back to the States solely because of food. And I honestly love Thai food just as much as I ever loved anything “American” (although I’m not even sure what American food is).
But if I wanted a job and/or business in the physical space, certain dynamics in the US changed for the better, and if I missed certain people enough, I could see the thought of a broader variety of quality food crossing my mind as part of a larger discussion on life, happiness, and location.
Conclusion
This was just a hypothetical post for funsies. I don’t plan on moving back to the US now – or ever.
But if the consideration ever seriously came up, these five reasons would be why.
Any one of these five reasons alone would not be strong enough to make a move likely. But if all five ideas popped up simultaneously – a US healthcare fix, getting tired of dealing with visa issues, wanting a job or a physical business of some kind, missing people, and craving the food – moving back would probably be something I’d at least contemplate.
The US is a phenomenal country. I don’t ever wish my writing to be construed into something that dogs the US. I’ll forever be appreciative of everything the country gave me. It’s a fantastic place for millions of people. That’s great.
But Thailand feels more like home to me. I’m very happy here. Happier than I ever was in the States, really.
And so it’s unlikely I’d ever move back. I plan to visit at some point in the next few years, but living in the US isn’t something I find realistic or tempting.
If I were to ever want/need to leave Thailand, it’s more likely that I’d actually move to somewhere else in this part of the world. The US would not even make my top-five list of countries for relocation, if the idea of moving elsewhere ever came up.
But maybe if I really, really, really miss the pizza! Just kidding… kind of.
What do you think? If you were to retire abroad, what would possibly pull you back?
Thanks for reading.
Image courtesy of: vectorolie at FreeDigitalPhotos.net.
P.S. If you’re interested in becoming financially independent and retiring abroad, take a look at some fantastic resources that helped me do just that in my 30s!
Interesting read Jason. Thank you!
But now I’m curious. What are your top-five list of countries to (potentially) live and why? Could be one of your next articles?
I’ve my own list in mind which includes South Africa (Cape Town), Poland (Wroclaw), Vietnam (Hoi An or Hanoi), Thailand (Ko Pha-ngan or Chiang Mai) or Portugal (Lisbon). Could be interesting to try them out step-by-step for a couple of months.
Greetings from Germany.
CU Ingo.
Ingo,
Thanks for dropping by!
Yeah, there are a lot of fantastic choices to choose from. I actually included quite a few locations in my most recent book. But a place to live is really an individual call. I love living in Thailand. But I can just as well understand how other people might not enjoy it at all. Comes down to individual preferences.
Fortunately, it’s not binary. It’s not “Thailand or US” for me. Those aren’t the only two choices. A place has to be judged on its individual merits. When I look at it like that, the US doesn’t rank very high. I could live in many different places, but I’m very happy here. If I thought I’d be happier somewhere else, I’d go there instead. 🙂
Best regards.
Jason, which PT certification did you go for and why?
Patrick,
I went with ACE. Affordable, widely accepted/respected, good support, and not over the top with the materials.
Cheers.
Excellent article, Jason!
To solve your visa issue, is it possible for you to become a full Thai citizen (if that’s something you even want)? What steps must one take to become a Thai citizen? Would that a feasible option to do away with visa paperwork? Would you ever consider giving up US citizenship altogether?
And I wholeheartedly agree with your comments at the top of this post. The political correctness and politics drive me nuts here in the US and it’s only getting worse! You left at the right time. People take politics so seriously here and it’s so divisive and it’s exacerbated by the 24/7 news cycle here. People seem to hate each other solely on their political leanings and ideologies. Does Thailand have very divisive political issues like here in the US? From what I read from you and what I’ve read elsewhere, Thai culture just seems more relaxed, harmonious, and less stressed.
Thanks for all your awesome posts! Truly an inspiration. Cheers!
Drew
Drew,
Thanks a lot. Glad you enjoyed it! 🙂
I don’t currently have a viable path to Thai residency/citizenship, nor would I aim for one. The visa thing isn’t really that cumbersome. Sure, I would rather not have to deal with visas, but people do tend to blow it out of proportion. Living in the US was way more of a hassle, all considered.
Thai culture is very relaxed and tolerant. I’ve written about that extensively, and it’s one of the greatest aspects of living here. The US, on the other hand, is a place where you’re expected to conform. And if you don’t share the same views as other people, you can start to feel isolated and alienated. Very divisive.
The US is great for many people. I just didn’t find it a good place for my psyche. To pay the high prices to live in a place like that started to strike me as silly. I’m much happier abroad.
Best wishes!
Thanks for the response, Jason! Glad to hear that the visa issues aren’t too cumbersome. As you said, it still beats all the other hassles you’d deal with in the US.
And yes, very divisive indeed here in the US and there’s a pressure to conform, as you said. It’s hard to speak up if you disagree with the collective for fear of feeling ostracized.
All the best!
I am a retired early Canadian, living 6 months in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico & the other half in Toronto, and basically asked myself to list the same reasons for returning to Canada as you did with the States. 1/ Healthcare. If I am out of the country for more than 6 months I have to re-apply for the free healthcare we get as citizens, so I schedule my doctor’s & eye doctor checkups for during the time I return. 2/ Visa If I stay on a 6 month visa I don’t have to get Mexican citizenship & don’t have to show any sources of income. 3/ I am retired so like you have zero interest in working 4/ I do miss family & friends and even though some do travel south to visit us, we enjoy seeing everyone in the summer up north 5/ The food in Canada is pretty much the same in Canada as in the States, with possible exceptions to Creole cooking in Louisiana and poutine in Quebec. The only other reason I could give is the weather is beautiful in spring, summer & fall, and sucks in the winter, much like you experienced living in Detroit, but I don’t get to go to Leaf games. O well, take the good with the bad, same as you described.
Brian,
Sounds like you have a pretty good system worked out over there. I guess we have similar reasons for returning. 🙂
I’m on a similar path to yourself – essentially becoming a “snowbird”. That next phase of my life will start to unfold in the next few years. But I don’t see myself spending six months per year in the States. Just too many other more appealing areas to live in part time.
Best regards!
Over the years I’ve thought about moving to a different cheaper country. I don’t have a name in mind but rather a few requirements like language, presence of nature and a balance of quality and cost of life.
I’ve been never been the kind of person to get attached to a particular place. In fact, I’ve been living outside of my birth country for the last 9 years. So I think I could well adapt to a new place.
I hear your concerns about healthcare. Health costs here in France are laughable. It just works.
Thanks for the post!
Clarence,
Yeah, it came down to a similar thing for me. I wanted to find the place where maximum quality of life intersected with minimum cost of living. Thailand was the best I could come up with. No regrets. 🙂
I suppose I was once attached to the US. Maybe back when my family was still intact. But I’ve also always had an interest in living abroad, so this was more or less a natural evolution for me.
Cheers!
Good article contrasting Thailand with the States. I’m staying in Houston during FIRE at least for now. If my father were to pass, I might try a couple years of “slow travel” with a couple three months in some cool places. But I feel grounded here and I don’t need the geo-arbitrage boost to my retirement income.
FV,
Hey, man. That’s great. Sounds like you’re happy in Houston. If you’re happy there, it wouldn’t make sense to move (domestically or abroad). If I were happy living in the US, I would have stayed. We all have to find our happy place in life. If you can find it, that’s awesome.
I’m with you on the money aspect. It’s not about the money for me anymore. Even if I had unlimited money, I wouldn’t want to stay in the States. Just cultural preference at this point, although the financial benefits of geo arb is very nice icing on the cake. 🙂
Best regards.
Hello,
If you would ever move back to the United States, what state would you move to and why? Are some states better to live in than others in your mind?
Have a great day!
Kind regards,
Anneli
Anneli,
Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s tough. I kind of went through this exercise a little bit before deciding to leave the US altogether. I couldn’t really find a place that checked all the boxes for me. And I was thinking more in terms of specific cities than states.
I was looking for:
Warm/mild weather
Low/no taxes
Good public transit, density, and walkability
No extreme political, religious, or other scene(s)
A sense of place and urbanity with prominent history, architecture, built environment, etc.
A good mix of urban and nature
Plenty of interesting people doing something different
A reasonable COL
Relatively safe
Good food
Decent entertainment options
Since the US is mostly low density/suburban and full of McMansions, highways, SUVs, and rat racers, I didn’t think it was a good place for me to find what I was looking for. Eastern Europe, South America, and Asia are full of places that check more boxes, however, so I determined there was no good reason to stay in the States.
But some cities that I found interesting were:
Denver
Portland, OR
Seattle
Miami Beach
I even like Chicago because I think it’s the best urban “bang for buck” in the States. But the winters and taxes are brutal.
Frankly, none of these cities are great across the board. All would involve some form of significant sacrifice in one area or another for what I’m looking for. I don’t know why in the world I’d make the sacrifices, though, just to be located on that rock over another/better rock.
If I were forced by gunpoint to return to the States tomorrow, it’d probably be a close race between Denver and Portland. Portland has kind of a Nordic/N European feel to it with the built environment around the Pearl District and parts of Downtown, but the political scene there is totally over the top. Meanwhile, Denver gets a lot of snow, and the built environment isn’t impressive. Both Portland and Denver are located in states with high income taxes, too. Chicago does pull on my heartstrings a bit because my best friend in the whole world lives close by. In the end, I think there are at least 20 other cities around the world more appealing than any of these choices, personally. I don’t think many US cities hold up well on a global comparison, at least for what I’m personally looking for, due to the issues I noted at the outset of the article. But the US does do suburban (or even country) very well. If you like suburban, the US is great.
Best wishes!
I’m a huge fan of Thailand. But like you said for starting a business the USA is far and away the place to be. That’s the only reason I’m looking to spend some time back stateside.
But am moving back to Thailand first.
-Mike
Mike,
Right there with you.
For living? Thailand is phenomenal. Practically unbeatable if you have a source of moderate but healthy passive income.
For starting a business? The US is phenomenal. Practically unbeatable if you’re looking for income that could scale almost infinitely.
Different places for different people/goals. 🙂
Cheers!
Hi Jason,
I think regardless of the place worldwide you have good and bad things. But if you have the luxury to decide, where you want to live and much more important, how to live, you have a very good position. Yes, the healthcare system is important, much more if you are getting older. In Germany the health care system seems from you writing better than in the US, but it is also expensive. What you wrote about the Thai system I find this much more comfortable. I think, in some parts in Asia it is much more effective. But of course you must have the money to afford it. On the other side I don´t know a place where it is different.
For jobs USA is one of the best countries in the world. And yes, I would never choose Thailand or another country with low costs to get to work. This does not make sense, if you have better posibilities. Foreign countries with low costs are only good, if you have an income which will pay everything. You can do online business, but it is not that easy to earn the COL as a lot of people think. It is doable, but it takes much more effort instead of doing a full-time-job in an industry country. I doubt, it will ever a question for you to search a new job. Every year the income gets with the increasing dividends more comfortable. If you increase the dividend income like you do nowadays with 15 – 20% /year, you are in 5 years far away from your normal COL, even if you do a bit life inflation. So this should be no reason to go back.
After beeing a bit more than a year financial free I still live in Munich, which is expensive. And there are two reasons: Family/friends and the food. OK, I like a lot of international food, Thai, Chinese, Japanese, Indian etc. cooking is very good, but I also like my Bavarian cooking. OK, I can cook very good, so its no problem, if I have a source to make some good Bavarian dishes. But I would really miss it. Family and friends is the second and main reason for me. On the other side I really think, it makes a difference to experience a country if you live there instead of travelling some months around. So I will do the same as you to go to a foreign country in the future. Not sure, where to go. But there will always be a time to stay a bit in Germany when I live abroad because of the two reasons above and some other reasons. May be 2 months in Germany and the rest elsewhere. This could be a good combination. The advantage is, to change for the 10 months the target where to live, for example Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, Thailand etc. etc. This could work for a time for me.
When I read your article, I think going back to US is only hypothetical for you. There are simple too less reasons changing back. But may be this will change if you get much older. Nobody knows.
Regards Oliver
Oliver,
Thanks for sharing!
Sounds like you’re relatively happy in Munich. That’s great. It’s not perfect there. Nowhere is. Everywhere has benefits and drawbacks. We just have to find those places where the pros advantageously outweigh the drawbacks, taking into account our personal desires and means. For me, it’s tough to beat Thailand, all considered. 🙂
But doing 10 months/2 months would be neat. I’m sure you’ll figure things out as you go. I plan on moving over to a part-time situation myself over the course of the next few years. I’ll plan on living here most of the year, basing my life here. Then I’ll spend a chunk of the year (around spring/summer) elsewhere. Very excited to explore a few different places.
Of course, sure, things will change as I get older. This is true for all of us. Our perspectives, wants, and needs change as we grow. That’s part of the fun. It’s exciting to think about those changes. I just hope I still find so much passion in writing, which will allow me to share some of these adventures down the road.
Best wishes.
Healthcare is a big issue. I think once you get Medicare, it would be better in the US especially if you need more healthcare. Medication is quite expensive in Thailand. It depends on what you need, of course. Generic is affordable, but if you need newer meds. It’s not cheap.
Food. I guess it depends on what you mean by international. It seems like there are lots of international Asian restaurants in Chiang Mai. Plenty of Japanese, Chinese, and Korean restaurants. Less French, Italian, and other European cuisine. I tend to eat Asian food anyway so that’s international enough for me.
Joe,
Medicare is definitely an option once you’re at a more traditional retirement age. For FIRE, though, there are way too many other better countries in that department. I was pleasantly surprised at just how efficient, cheap, and quality the healthcare is here. Makes the US look terrible. But I think everyone is aware that something needs to change there. How that changes, and how long it takes to change, is a complicated issue.
Yeah, there is international food here. I’ve eaten at a majority of the restaurants in the city. But you can run through most of the solid international joints pretty quickly. In my opinion, moving to Bangkok is the obvious way to go if this ever actually became a problem for me. In terms of quality, diverse food options, Bangkok is on a totally different planet compared to CM. I still think the Thai food is better in the north, however. Just my taste buds. And since I eat Thai food 80% to 90% of the time (and enjoy it all very much), the food scene here has been more than enough for me thus far. 🙂
Best regards!
What visa are you using to stay there ?I understand you have to deposit a lot of momey in a thai bank or do the Laos 30 day run Which they are cracking down on
Thanks
martin,
I live here on an ED visa.
Cheers.
I’m interested in what you say about male female relations being more adversarial in the states. What does Oh think about being a woman in Thailand. Does she have equal opportunities to Thai men? Can you be an independent Thai woman? Excuse my ignorance I am genuinely interested. A recent politician in my country said he supported women advancing but not at a cost to men. But here’s the thing. If more women are successful it stands to reason that they will compete with men and the more mediocre men will have less opportunities than they once had when all the opportunities went to m n by default.
Kiwi,
I’m not going to get into it or debate it. It wasn’t the point of the article. It’s just my personal viewpoint on what’s become of communication and relationships between men and women. Numerous large-scale “movements” are all the rage over there.
As for Thailand, it’s a totally different culture. It’s nothing like the US in this department. I’m thankful for that.
Cheers.